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Post by greybeard on Jan 6, 2011 23:14:09 GMT
Actually I was thinking of North's 3DL and their newest 3Di materials along with their TPT materials they are developimg with their partners which are set to replace carbon as the latest structural building materials, I suposse if you're sailing in a provincial backwater you automatically assume exotic materials are mylar, kevlar and carbon, when these have been regarded as main stream materials for years.
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antc
Junior Member
Posts: 70
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Post by antc on Jan 7, 2011 0:37:20 GMT
With the size of the boat I cant see exotic materials it making more difference than a good tack or a good gybe. a quick hoist can gain you 10 boat lengths 3dl vs laminate vs Dacron sails won't do this in a 3 mile beat in boats that do 4.5 kts upwind. And a new Dacron will strip an 2-3 yr old laminate any day. carbon masts are penalized in irc rating so that doesn't matter any way. 3dl sails and carbon spars will make a boat look beautiful and I wish I could afford it but a well sailed boat with standard laminates and an aly rig will still win every time Cupid stunt what boat are you restoring sound like it will be a beaut
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PaulD
Junior Member
Posts: 59
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Post by PaulD on Jan 7, 2011 1:06:04 GMT
Reading through the posts it is stated, ''I would be more worried about carbon spars, carbon fiber rudders and other exotic sail materials'' Surely this would imply carbon is also an exotic sail material?
3DL is more about the construction method and not the materials as it is thermo moulded in one piece, producing a seamless sail which is moulded in its exact flying shape. The continuous yarn layout provides stability, lighter sails and a longer sail life. The materials in 3Di sails are carbon fiber, aramid and dyneema, they are the main components and again its about the construction method and not the materials.
Carbon rigs on these sizes boats don't make to much of a difference on your IRC rating.
At the end of the day technology has come such a long way since these boats were designed and built. Things will need to be replaced over time such as keels, masts, sails etc etc and it makes sense to use up to date materials as they are more often than not, priced similar to standard materials, and if not they are only slightly more expensive but will last longer. So in the long run exotic materials are cheaper, will perform better for longer as they will last longer. Yes a 'new' dacron may be better than a 2-3 year old laminate sail, but just think what that dacron sail maybe like in 2-3 years time!
If some one has the money to get a carbon rig and nice 3DL's im all for it as it will look really nice and its another great looking little boat which will attract attention to our ever growing fleet. Who doesnt want that? The class is already turning alot of heads and will continue to do so, so lets not hold back on bringing these beautiful little boats back to life and on the water. Look at the attention the class is already getting, just look at this months edition of PBO, you wouldnt have seen that if the class wasnt set up and building all the time, or have the guys at Seahorse watching us and looking for stories!
The key thing that we need to make sure doesnt happen is the hull dates get changed! That is where the cost is when restoring these boats if you go changing them!!! Changing the hull dates should be more of a concern than sail materials and carbon masts! Lets keep this class growing and get more of these little boats on the water.
Hull dates! Thats the key!
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shamm
New Member
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Post by shamm on Jan 9, 2011 23:03:18 GMT
AS a class we should remain affordable but try not to be hemmed in by rules that preclude experimentation in the spirit of the original class . Sails of laminates have been commonplace for 15- 20 yrs and cost wise a premium of 20% over dacron seems average though not investigated 3dl . Keels only problem is that hardly any keels would be available off the shelf for minitonners but keelboats such as 1720,soling,etchells,old scrapped minitonners etc some would have bulbs some not,a lot of the one offs had custom built keels and Rowan appears to have gone down that route.Ultimately with these 30 yr old boats sticking a bulb on the end of the keel might just be too much for some , however the fact that so many of these boats survive is remarkable. Spars are the biggest issue with a higher cost for carbon but it is coming down,I acquired off ebay a carbon spinny pole for about half the cost of a new one.Carbon booms would cost little more than ali if you started with carbon tube and would be less heavy on the head.Masts would incur heavier additional cost probably for little gain as many of our masts on one offs have pushed weight saving to the limit for aluminium. Matt was very inclusive allowing boats to race under ISC measurement and IRC and will keep costs down and surely will help draw in the standard Eboats ,sonatas etc,but they can of course still be in minitonners if not in class.Will we have to put a limit on IRC rating when we do not know if a particular boat was ever IOR rated.Paul D does make the point that hull date will be important. These boats are great fun to sail and on events like the Round the Island race you can beat on the water boats costing 10x our boats makes it even more rewarding. Assymetric kites should be allowed as they are easier for novice crews to handle and those wanting to run both types of kite have the extra weight of pole kit and sails to factor in.
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PaulD
Junior Member
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Post by PaulD on Jan 9, 2011 23:35:44 GMT
I agree with Shamm on the above regarding the keels. I found out yesterday that one of the production mini tonners has had a bulb put on it in the past and I dont see why we should penalise a new owner because of things like that. As these boats are now starting to push 30 odd years olds, some do need keels replaced such as Rowans, and I think this should be allowed, but when we start getting new keels for these boats because we cn then thats a different matter in my eyes.
The carbon spars, im unsure about apart from if someone thinks they will get such a performance advantage from going carbon, please dont shot about it when you find there isnt any difference apart from in your wallets. Poles, I dont see what the issue would be, especially as some of these boats have family crews onboard, and a carbon pole may make the difference in a crew member being able to gybe the pole, and not gybe the pole, so if this means it gets people on the water great. As for the assymetric kites, i pesonally have nothing against them, and if we are sailing under IRC for example then these are taken into account in your rating, so to me thats fine. And also these are a great ay to fly a kite in a breeze, especially in these little lively boats.
An upper rating may be a good way to control people modifying these boats and sticking bigger and bigger igs on them, but hull dates and the spirit o the mini tonners is the ey thing to me. Changing these boats from what they were, chopping them up etc jut isnt cricket in my eyes.
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Post by Piers Stanbury on Jan 22, 2011 14:14:56 GMT
Dear All,
What an interesting debate with many valid points! Firsly we all recognise that we are racing under IRC, therefore any modifications should be reflected in a yachts rating to balance any increase / decrease in the yachts potential performance. When we race under a handicap system we are not 'racing' each other, we are effectively trying to match or even exceed the boats potential performance around the race course, the potential performance being defined as the IRC rating. This is great in theory but in practise we know there can be big boat races (foul tide beats / fair tide runs) and small boat races (vice versa), hence we one of the reasons we (or at least I) like racing in the minitonner classes, as we are all racing boats which were built to the same rule and therefore have a similar performance envelope (not same....similar!). Therefore we all should be in roughly the same bit of water at the same time and experiencing the same conditions.
What would concern me the most is if someone modified an MT to the extent that it's performance was way out of the envelope, i.e. turboed rig with fat head main and mast head assy, hull modified to allow the hull to plane, so what you effectively have is sports boat! Such a boat would be way ahead of the fleet which I fear can turn our class into a matter of luck and skill, rather than just skill.
Before getting involved in MT sailing the majority of my racing was coastal / offshore racing under IRC and after a couple of years I got very good at guessing what yacht was likely to win a race based on the known course and weather conditions; a long beat with a big sea look for a 70/80's heavy displacement cruiser racer (swan 44 for example), light airs and fair tides look at the lowest rated boats or lightest displacement etc etc.
My point being that every dog has it's day, but get enough similar dogs together and it shouldn't matter what day it is, everyone has a chance.......However it isn't quite that simple.
OK so lets look at what has happened with the Quarter Tonners. Ken rightly points out that money has now become a major issue with this class, effectively it is now chequebook racing if you want to get to the top, not that this is a new thing in handicap racing!
It started of as a bit of fun, more people got involved and therefore it become more competitive, therefore attracting more skillful sailors, hence owners sought ways of making their boats go faster whilst minimising the effect to their IRC rating, hence the IRC friendly rigs they all carry now (FYI, max sized mains with out extended roaches, non-overlapping headsails which are sheeted in-board, large mast head kites, swept back stays with chain plates on the toe rail, no runners or check stays) They dry sail the boats and have expoxied bums, keels are faired, rudders are replaced with more modern / efficient shapes (note that IRC ratings require you to give no info about your rudder!) Carbon masts appear to lower the centre of gravity, North £DL's get made etc etc etc..... Why, because as it became more popular and the sailing more skilled, owners wanted to make sure that it was easier to sail to the 'potential performance' of the yacht so that they had a greater chance of winning.
Many buyers of IRC yachts will spend hours discerning whether a particular yacht 'can sail to it's rating', it is probably the most significant deciding factor for a competitive owner after size and budget!
If you look at the Qurter Tonner results over the years you will see the in most cases a yachts which rates towards or at the top end of the envelope won, why was this? It's all to do with Clean Air, the faster the boat, the more liklihood (assuming a good start) that you will have clear air and open lanes up the first beat, therefore allowing them to extend away from the fleet.... so what happened....you guessed it, owners started turboing their boats so they could maximise this advantage!
We should all note that the Quarter Ton class now has a maximum IRC rating !
As I understand it Matt set this all up so that approximately like minded people could get together to sail like minded boats, furthermore I guess that most of the people who have joined and take an active interest are of the same opinion. What we define as Minitonners are yachts that where designed and built to the old IOR MiniTonner rule, simple, this is what the QT's did to.
Now we have people raing the issue of Modifications and so on. As it has been pointed out above there could be many reasons that 30 year old boats are modified, bits need replacing and can't be replaced by the original part as it is no longer available......so we have to allow modifications, and as we all agree (i hope) the IRC rating will reflect this.
With regards assy kites this a no brainer, let them in! In lighter airs they may have advantage as they gybe easily but unless the race course includes reaching legs going downwind in a boats that don't plane (that much) you would probably want to head straight down the leg to the leeward mark.
The bigger question is what do we want this class to be about? Do we want to restrict the 'chequebook' element or not, do we want to be that the boat has to be a mini tonner type, but you can modify it any way you want?
If we can get this defined then we have a basis to work from, and then it will need to be incorporated into the class rules, if it doesn't get put into rules the human nature will take it's course.............
So finally my two pennies worth:
1) Max rating band required, I suggest around the 0.870 mark 2) No Carbon masts 3) No one piece laminate sails 4) Maybe a maximum number of sail purchases per annum (after initial inventory brought) 5) Define sail inventory (how many kites and headsails?) 6) All boats to be anti-fouled 7) If a yacht not specifically built to the IOR MT rules wants to come and play there is a formal procedure on how this is considered, and it is noted and minuted.
Apologies for the essay, Piers
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PaulD
Junior Member
Posts: 59
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Post by PaulD on Jan 25, 2011 8:46:30 GMT
Some interesting comments, but carbon masts on these size boats isnt going to make a big difference apart from in the pocket, so I dont see why this should be banned, also as carbon becomes even more affordable then in years to come carbon masts may be the way forwards. And as for one piece laminate sails, I already know of atleast two boat with them so that would put them out, and I certainly aint limiting the number of sails. And the sails will be noted when the boats have been rated so so this will take that into account. As for anti-fouling, i'm dry sailing my boat and know a few others are to, so I aint spending more money on anti-fouling or the up keep every year. Plus we have members wh sail on inland waters who cant anti-foul their boats.
The key things we need to manage are-
The hull dates of these great little boats isnt changed, no fairing of bumps, changing the shapes etc etc etc Any changes to the boats are done in the 'Spirit of the Mini Tonner'
These boats were a designers play ground back in their days, which meant people changed things all the time so if we are racing under IRC we have to be able to change and develop the boats. My only thought is to maybe have an upper IRC rating but this cant be set until boats are in the water and all rated.
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Post by Piers Stanbury on Jan 27, 2011 14:59:58 GMT
Paul,
I totally accept that MT's was a designers playground back in the day, especially the one off's, that said if we want to follow in this spirit we should remember that the MT IOR rules where level rated so that (in theory) they where all the same speed around the course, if you put on more sail area, you had to also put more weight into the boat to keep it to the rating. I think therefore we need to specify a maximum rating ASAP, if we wait until everyone gets a certificate before doing so there is nothing to stop someone modifying a boat so such an extent that it's to far ahead of the general fleet.
The reason I said around 0.870 is that the two highest rated boats I know are around 0.850 mark, these being Shallot and Desperate Dan (DD is a Smokey similar yours buts rates badly as she has a non standard keel which was put on 12 years ago, therefore her hull age date is 12 years not what yours is!) Going upto 0.870 would allow a boat that is approx 1min per hour faster than the currently known highest rated MT's in the UK, 0.870 would be around 2 and half minutes an hour faster than Blue Movie or a Sonata and about 3 minutes an hour faster that Ant's E-boat (lowest rated as far as I am aware). Thus we are all roughly sailing in the same conditions and keeping the fleet together on the course. If someone wants to 'build' a boat to 0.870 they can by getting a trial cert with IRC, if it comes out a bit over, stick in 30 / 40kgs of ballast and re-measure the overhangs and you will lose a couple of dots....... I did put some thought into it, but I am not saying it should be at 0.870, but suggesting it. Interestingly the QT's have a spread of around 100 dots, but they were around for a lot longer than the MT's therefore the range in the age of hull would give such a spread
A points to clarify, when I said one piece laminate sails I meant 3DL type sails, not fibre sails, I don't know any MT that has 1 piece sails (buts I don't know every MT) where as those with 'fibre sails' are using Kemps from Matt or Quantums (Blue Movie &Shallot) which are all panelled fibre sails......the cost between the two is quite considerable, even for an MT, I did look into it.
Finally, you totally hit the nail on the head when saying 'spirit of Mini Tonner', my major point being that as a class this does need to defined morely clearly so that it doesn't get abused, as has happened in the QT's whose Class Assoc had to remedy the situation after the event rather than before it occured....all I am saying is lets learn from other's mistakes.
All the best, Piers
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Post by sunnyboy on Jan 27, 2011 19:28:18 GMT
FYI piers, the sunshine boys last irc rating was 0.858 this was before the current refit she's undergoing! She is a one off/prototype from 1979 and I'm sure there any many minis out there that will rate higher than this! We shouldn't put a rating cap on this early on in the class' revival, give it a couple more years, wait for more one offs to come out the wood work, and see where we all stand!
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Post by Fuzzy Rush on Jan 27, 2011 23:41:33 GMT
I'd just like to say that I am stoked with the quality of this debate guys! It has been really interesting to see all the comments and thoughts. All the points made are well noted and I would like to thank all those that have taken the time to make these excellent contributions. I will remove the original Assymetric and Bulb keel rules (as originally stated, for this year) and also give thought to introducing an upper IRC limit (which pretty much solves all the problems - just as long as we ensure we get the limit set at the right level) Thanks again guys - 2011 should be fun! Matt
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Post by Secondanita on Mar 28, 2011 17:30:56 GMT
The first Mylar sail I touched in my life was in 1983 and was Glass Onion's no. 1 Genoa on the day my brother bought her. Sail materials should be free, anyone who wants to spend the price of a car on a set of sails would do better with a QT and in my opinion is unlikely to be sailing a minitonner. Carbon spars is a similar point - if the class were to have a deliberately fuzzy definition of "the spirit of the class" then the "committee" could make a subjective call on what is acceptable. What is not wanted is that someone spends loads of money and then wins everything.
The class seems to accept that Shallott is pretty difficult to beat - how true is she to the original, and does anyone mind?? Being well sailed with the designer sometimes onboard gives an edge. But the wish on all sides is to ensure that it stays affordable fun. If you have to rule "no more than 1 professional sailor on board" as the QT's have, then it's a sign that it's gone too far - time to move on to a QT! I am still on the search for QT or minitonner, various factors come into it, one of which is that I want to be able to sail the boat with just my wife. But I still want the adrenalin rush, so will also tweak/optimise everything I can, but without throwing lots of money at it (or any if I can help it!). Richard in Germany
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Post by merlinman on Dec 5, 2011 22:54:02 GMT
Just a word of warning to all of you getting excited about optimising boats putting carbon on the boat messing with your rigs etc etc.
In my humble opinion as a Quarter Tonner owner it is these practices which have prohibited me from getting actively involved in the QT class as it is now.
I own a Bolero (Merlin GBR 6462T) which I purchased for just under £7K in 2006. Other than putting some new (Kemp) sails on her and replacing the running rigging, putting on new instruments, cleaning the bottom off and replacing a broken boom I haven't spent too much money on her. I do however scrub off on a regular basis. If I am correct this is the kind of things many of you have done to your mini tonners and not too much else
We have had some good results under ISC rating in the RTI race and had a storming season at Portchester SC this year finishing up as club champion.
However, as far as sailing against other QT's is concerned, because people are able to spend as much as they like optimising the rigs etc on them we just can't compete.
I sailed in this yrs Mini Ton cup with Matt on Fuzzy rush and the thing that really excited me about the class was how a decent fleet turned out for an excellent days sailing but no one seemed to be off the pace because they were not spending loads of money on their boat, because no one seemed to have spent loads of money.
Don't turn your class in to a mini version of the QT fleet because you will spoil it in the long run. If you want to start getting in to cheque book sailing with funky sails and optimised rigs etc etc then go and sail the QT.
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Post by martin on Dec 8, 2011 19:10:38 GMT
Well said sir
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Post by sgtpepper on Jan 2, 2012 11:50:56 GMT
It is the chance to restore and optimise these boats which has made the quarter ton class so popular! We also have a bolero which this year is getting a new rig. Over the last 5 years we have turned up to all but 1 cup and even with our old rig have managed 2 top 10 positions overall in the cup. The bolero is a quick boat as standard so don't be put off by a few kevlar/carbon sails.
The boleros have good numbers alone at the cup and there are plenty of other non optimised boats to race against! Merlin is a very nice example of the bolero so please come back and race with us!
It has taken us 5 years to get to the point where we can afford the new rig and it has come at the same time as needing a new suit of sails anyway so it is a small percentage of the cost of the sails to put a new rig in at the same time...
I say we need new sails however they are all "new" condition but we want to try some new things with sail shape so it makes sense to go for new sails rather than re cutting old ones.
The only real rules in the quarter tonners are hull date, no carbon rigs, and a rating ceiling of 0.920. It is hard to spend a lot of money with any good reason other than cosmetics and stay under that rating ceiling!
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