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Post by Fuzzy Rush on Nov 20, 2010 16:51:11 GMT
Several discussions over the last few months with some of our active and also prospective Class sailors has led me to question the definition of our Class rules.
The two areas I am concerned about is the wording not permitting Bulb keels - (which was only included to exclude 'extreme keels' such as found on Mini Transats) However, as these keels are occasionally found on some potential mini tonners (see the E-boat 22 thread) I would like to remove it - and thus any possible ambiguity.
Secondly, the wording regarding Assymetrics and Bowsprits also is a little too blunt and far reaching. There seems to be no real objection to Assymetric Spinnakers/Cruising Chutes being used and short bowsprits/poles are a positive help when using such sails.
In trying to encourage and clarify the right type of boats I think I may have been a little too harsh and cast some doubt on a few boats and legitimate upgrades that we may not wish to exclude. It seems that we are all clear enough about what contitutes a Mini Tonner and the Class Spirit that we hoped to achieve is well established.
Hence, I propose to remove this wording and those particular exclusions from our definitions at the start of the New Year, unless I hear any particular complaints or objections the contrary.
Comments and thoughts are welcome.
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Post by greybeard on Nov 20, 2010 17:07:33 GMT
I would welcome the ability to use a short bowsprit like the Selden kit and a furler for the assymetric, the ability to furl the genny and launch the assymetric without having to leave the cockpit to go to the bow on something as small as a mini tonner at my age is something to be welcomed. Overly long torpedo bulbed keels as seen in many of the newer racers might defeat the ability to trailer the mini tonner to events and surely that defeats the object of having one.
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antc
Junior Member
Posts: 70
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Post by antc on Nov 22, 2010 15:15:46 GMT
i think that we need to encorage as many people as possible and any how the irc rating will take all these things into concideration to make it fair. min transats rate at over 1.000 so the likley-hood of them racing with us is minimal.
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Post by kendocherty on Nov 22, 2010 20:27:07 GMT
I understand the intention behind this, and don't really see any issue with bulb keels, however one of the real attractions of the class is the fact that we are resurrecting a classic form of racing.
Keeping it within reason as a "classic" class keeps the costs down, keeps the racing tight, and separates us from all the newer IRC classes.
If we go down the route of bowsprits and assymetrics don't we really run the risk of diluting what it's really all about?
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Post by martin on Nov 22, 2010 20:27:06 GMT
I agree at the need to be inclusive, I don't see the likes of a Melges 24 wanting to join in, even when the sportsboat rule is going to be binned.
The IOR rule did not favour bulbs generally, the larger boats carried lead ballast internally to get a better rating, and the last of the quarter tonners went as far as wooden daggerboards.
Anyone tempted to modify their boat is likely to get a hefty increase in the IRC rating
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Post by Fuzzy Rush on Nov 22, 2010 21:49:41 GMT
Thanks for pitching in fellas - it's good the hear what you all think Fundamentally, I think my point is that we really don't need these particular definitions to define what the class is...I'm comfortable with that aspect and I'm not suggesting that we encourage people to change or modify their boats. However, I do know of that E-boat with a little bulb on the keel (see boats for sale thread) and I am led to believe there may have been more of them. In which case I certainly don't want to outlaw them. As AntC says we should be a class of 'love' and welcome as many participants as possible! Also, Cruising Chutes weren't around when the Class was established but they are now commonplace and they are super easy to use (as Greybeard rightly points out) so why shouldn't a boat that has one and declares it, use it? Such a sail is a far cry from a Melges with a giant Assymetric and a 1m+ bowsprit....
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Post by greybeard on Nov 22, 2010 23:00:58 GMT
As an assymetric for a mini tonner is unlikely to be that must dearer than a conventional spinnaker, it will hardly push the costs up too much, I would be more worried about carbon spars, carbon fibre rudders and other exotic sail materials, surely an upper limit to the IRC rating for the class will discourage newer sportsboat designs and so forth for wanting to join, surely if you want to upgrade your boats gear within reason it should be permissable.
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PaulD
Junior Member
Posts: 59
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Post by PaulD on Nov 24, 2010 10:03:15 GMT
Guys, I think this is getting a little out of control with talks about Melges 24, Mini Transats and new sports boats, these are NOT IOR Mini Tonners. We should refer back to the Ton Ruling and history which is explained on our class website. Yes we want as many people out on the water possible, but we need to do it in the 'Spirit of the Mini Tonners'. The type of racing that the newer sports boats would want to do are not what the Mini Tonners would, I have a Platu 25 as well as Smokey, but I wouldn’t dream of trying to race it against the Mini's, it would be significantly faster and would prefer a bigger course and will certainly not result in good close racing! Sports boats are not Mini Tonners!
As for the bulb / keel conversations, there have been one or two Mini Tonners designed with bulb keels which should be allowed as that is how they were designed back in their day. We have to remember this class was a yacht designers play ground while a lot of them where starting out so there will be the odd funky design etc etc, but if we are going and modifying keels and adding bulbs then this is going away from the Spirit of the Mini Tonners and should not be allowed. plus this starts the cheque book sailing side of things!
As for Carbon Spars and exotic sail materials. The cost of a carbon mast is alot and takes the emphasis away from the class being easy to get into and have low cost racing and not cheque book sailing. The exotic sails, well if you rule this out it puts a lot of people out, Smokey, Sunshine Boys, Shallot, Desperate Dan, Esykmo, Natural Magic, Smine 2, Glass Onion, Meg and alot of the Limbo's such as Blue Movie and also Wizard which you will see on youtube! I know I wont be buying new sails just to fit in with this.
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rowan
New Member
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Post by rowan on Nov 24, 2010 13:28:55 GMT
A lot of the above makes sense - but....... There must be many minitonners that have been modified in the years between the original minitonne cup days and the current revival. During this time there would be no reason for people to stick to any of the IOR rules. 2 years ago(before I even knew about minitonners!) I started making a new keel for my boat, it's coming to completion and will be fitted for next season. It's got a bulb. It's cost me under £100 in materials and I've got to use it because the old one's knackered. If minitonner racing had been going without a big gap it would be reasonable to expect boats to be modified within the rules, but with a 20 year gap in mintonne action surely we have to be flexible. P.S - I don't have a cheque book
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Post by sunnyboy on Nov 24, 2010 14:59:15 GMT
hi guys we agree with some of the comments made above, and with Rowan who has just said "no cheque book sailing". And Paul's comment "this was a designers playground". If the class is to evolve and grow there must be room to develop the boats but not outside the spirit of the IOR Rule, the origins of the class, and from the original hull designs to remain a minitonner. So this makes any sportsboat non compliant
As new materials become available and more accessible, then as long as we declare and are rated for them under IRC, i don't see the problem. Any major changes should be put to the class, and then have valid IRC cert with the changes, a trial certificate isn't that expensive to see the alterations on the handicap.
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mikec
New Member
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Post by mikec on Dec 23, 2010 20:09:49 GMT
Rowan put it very well about mods in the period between the original minitonne days and the current revival. With the IOR effectively dead, there was no reason to comply. And as with Rowan, that's exactly what happened to me; my twin keels have bulbs. This is essential in order to get the weight down, and in fact with careful design I got the C of G of the keels to virtually the same depth as the fin keel. Cases such as these might be seen as deserving some degree of latitude; so personally I'm in favour of the proposals. I'm unlikely to take part in this racing but you never know, I could be tempted.
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Post by cupidstunt on Jan 3, 2011 14:24:23 GMT
I'm in the process of restoring a mini ton one off, and the things I'm reading on this site are ridiculous! The guy who says about carbon rudders,spars and exotic sail materials, what are you on? I'm having a new rudder designed and made for the boat, I can afford carbon, so why wouldn't I use it? Same goes for the rig! As for sails the idea that we'd all be racing around with shitty dacrons? Absurd You've got to stop these whiny people (halve of which don't have boats, or don't intend to race!) from ruinig this revival before it gets going! Mini Tonners are IOR boats, they were designed to race, and to soften them up by not allowing owners to optimise their boats however they like, regardless of cost, is wrong
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PaulD
Junior Member
Posts: 59
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Post by PaulD on Jan 4, 2011 23:21:21 GMT
Cupidstunt, I agree with what you are saying regarding optimising these boats and they were designed to be raced. When the class was set up it was done with the Spirit of the Mini Tonners in mind and how they used to be, which were cheap to run and race. Optimising the boats has to be allowed as technology has advanced since those days, but I personally feel we as a class need to control this somehow, things like changing the hull dates of the boats, fairing out the bumps etc shouldnt be allowed but use of 'exotic' materials should be as these are becoming more readily available. If we start chopping up these boats, and fairing there lumps nd bumps these great little boats become no more, which is part of their beauty all these weird and wonderful shapes.
Which one off Mini are you restoring?
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Post by kendocherty on Jan 6, 2011 20:25:32 GMT
Cupidstunt, just a small point - no one is suggesting dacron sails, as anybody could see last year at the Mini Ton Cup the sheer amount of carbon was a sailmakers dream.
What it's all about is trying to avoid the huge numbers the quartertonners are throwing at their boats - I heard at the weekend that this years refit on an already immaculate and front running boat was £60k.
We surely are champagne racing at beer budget costs, and as long as we keep it all fun so we have lots of people having a great time in these great little boats nothing else is worth getting too excited about, don't you think?
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Post by cupidstunt on Jan 6, 2011 22:19:56 GMT
Actually ken, grey beard said he was worried about "exotic sail materials", So I guess it's what you class as exotic, Mylar, Kevlar, carbon? Dacron is the only real non exotic material used in sails And personally I saw a lot of Dacron and very little laminate sails at the cup, with the exception of three possibly? The only way this is a sailmakers dream is the thought of all the suits of sails he could sell!
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